#6 Kirsty Dias on Employee Ownership, Purpose-Driven Design and Leading a Creative Studio Through Transition

In this episode of Stake and Soul, Barry speaks with Kirsty Dias, Managing Director of PriestmanGoode, one of the world's leading transport and passenger experience design studios, responsible for landmark projects including the New Tube for London and aircraft cabin interiors for major global airlines.

Kirsty joined the studio in 2001 and became a director in 2016, the same year the founding partners transitioned the business to an Employee Ownership Trust. She has led the studio as MD through a decade of significant growth and has experienced EO from every angle: as an employee who received the news, as a trustee director who had to communicate it, and now as the leader responsible for sustaining it.

In this conversation, she speaks candidly about what the studio underestimated at the start, why the ownership model only truly came into its own during COVID, and what it actually takes to build a culture of genuine engagement rather than a formal one.

This is a thoughtful conversation for founders, leaders and employee-owned businesses navigating the gap between the transaction and the transformation.

What's covered in this episode

• What prompted the founders to explore employee ownership and why a trade sale was not the route they wanted.
• The experience of receiving the EOT news as an employee, and what was and was not explained at the outset.
• Why the early years looked more like a benefits package than genuine ownership engagement, and what shifted.
• How COVID became the moment the model came into its own.
• The governance structure and how communication between the trust board and main board has been formalised over time.
• How the three-pillar framework of retain, reward and invest shapes how profit decisions are communicated to the team.
• The challenge of maintaining culture as the studio scales.
• Why EO longevity is a credible signal in a long-term, relationship-driven industry.

Moments to listen out for

• The role one external adviser played in setting the expectations of employee ownership at a critical moment.
• How communication during COVID shifted from one-sided to a genuine exchange, and what that unlocked.
• Why EO requires dedicated time and consistency, and what happens when it is treated as an afterthought.
• Kirsty's reflection on significant people leaving and why different does not have to mean worse.

Quickfire highlights

• Employee ownership is: working collaboratively for the best shared outcome.
• Biggest EO lesson: the time and consistency it demands. You cannot run it on the side.
• Leadership insight: collaborative, non-hierarchical leadership suits EO. Good ideas come from juniors too.
• Cultural priority: building a studio where people leave having absorbed the culture, and take it with them.

This episode is a grounded account of what EO looks and feels like inside a creative business that did not start with a clear playbook. The conversation is a useful reminder that the transaction is the starting point, not the destination.

Disclaimer:

The following podcast is intended to be of a general nature, will not be suitable for everyone, and should not be treated as a specific recommendation. We recommend taking professional advice before entering into any obligation or transaction.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi, my name is Barry Horner, and I'm your host on today's episode of Stake and Soul, the podcast that's dedicated to demystifying the world of employee ownership. Stake refers not just to the financial or beneficial ownership, but also to the vested interest, the sense of responsibility, and the feeling of belonging that comes with being an employee owner. Soul is all about the company culture, the values, the shared purpose, and the human connection that are amplified and shaped by employee ownership. Soul is the company's side of language. Join us for series one as we sit down with business leaders and CEOs who have successfully navigated their journey to employee ownership. So, uh, welcome back to the podcast. Today I have the immense pleasure of speaking with Kirsty Dias, the managing director of Priesteman Good. Priestman Good is a world-leading design studio responsible for shaping some of the most visible and innovative passenger experiences on the planet, from high-end aircraft cabins for companies like United Airlines to revolutionary rail projects like New Tube for London. Kirsty has been an instrument in the consultancy's growth since she joined in 2001. A true thought leader in design and innovation. She has driven Priestman Good's concepts on the future of transport and has led major projects across rail and travel industries. Crucially for our listeners, Kirstie led the studio through its transition to employee ownership trust in 2016, securing the company's long-term creative and commercial future. This move, which she describes as a natural extension of the company's journey, ensures that every team member is fully invested in the future success and vibrant culture of the studio. We'll be discussing how the EOT model works with a high in a high creative design environment and how Kirsty is continuing to advocate for a more sustainable and inclusive future of the design industry. So with that introduction, Kirsty, welcome to Stake Console, the EO Podcast. Great to have you with me.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Super. So maybe a good place to start, and typically where I've started with most other podcast guests, is a little bit of an intro to you. I've looked at your LinkedIn profile. French, interesting background, marketing, and then and then joining the studio and then making your way through that. So I think for listeners, it would be really interesting just to know a little bit about your personal journey and then a little bit about the company. I mean, it sounded from my initial intro and my reading of the work that you do, it's it's quite unusual as a firm. So it'd be good to just explore that, and then we'll move on to a little bit about what led to succession transition and what you led you down the path of employee ownership. So maybe let's start with a little bit of your background and CV.

SPEAKER_05 2:47

That's that's funny, people don't really ask me about that in terms of my uh yeah, my kind of academic background. Um but I did study French. I went to UCL and I did a French degree. Um, but when I was at um UCL, I actually spent a lot of my time um doing theatre production. So I produced quite a lot of um yeah, of plays, and that was my kind of real passion. I was involved with the National Student Theatre Company and knew kind of quite early on that I wanted to kind of pursue um a professional career in theatre. And so I spent when I graduated, I spent about three years working in um, I basically worked in a regional repertory theatre, doing press and marketing. Um and uh the thread I think that kind of goes kind of through my career is that I really, really love working with creative people. And so that, you know, that kind of love of of kind of theatre and of of producing plays very specifically, because I wasn't a performer, but I was interested in the production side and in facilitating essentially a creative vision was kind of present from the outset. And I actually moved from theatre into visual arts and I went to work for the barbecue for Barbican Art Gallery. Right. And again, uh, you know, I was interested in the creative process, and I did a similar kind of role in um at the Barbican, I was the marketing manager, but I also had responsibility for um commissioning graphic design, um, had involvement in exhibition design, and um that in itself kind of gave me my first kind of taste grounding in commissioning design. Okay. And I then, after I'd been at um the Barbican, I then went to the British Council in more of a curatorial role where I worked in the design promotion unit, curating exhibitions about British design. And one of the design disciplines I picked up was industrial design. Um but my experience at the British Council um led me to work on a uh big kind of trade promotion initiative called Millennium Products at the end of the 20th century, so different century, and it was kind of a big part of um the of New Labour and promoting kind of British expertise and innovation overseas and through that project, which basically went to pretty much every market in the world. It was a creation of a big um multi-sectoral exhibition that supported trade missions, it supported diplomatic visits, it supported royal visits in pretty much every market you can think of. Uh, brought together kind of my marketing experience with um the curatorial side, but also trade diplomacy. And I had kind of exposure to that international network of um uh embassies, uh tech chambers of commerce, um, consulates, and um really a taste of of how export works. And that's actually how I met Priestman Good. Okay. And then I went to work for uh Priestman Good in a role which was initially kind of comms-based. I was head of comms, but it brought together essentially that trade and marketing experience with um yeah, kind of more of the curatorial side to support Priestman Good's um presence in in exhibitions, publications, and on um platforms. So talking and conferences around the world and developing content for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Wow. What a fascinating and varied background. So you've now joined the company that you're in. Tell us a little bit about that company and then a little bit about your progression through that company to now be the MD.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

So um, as I said, I started as head of comms. Priestman Good is a uh design consultancy specialising in passenger experience and transport. And so we work across all the transport modes, but um with kind of a focus on aviation and rail as well as future mobility. We do also do work in cruise ships. Um but we initially, so the company began at kind of the end of the eight, um, end of the 80s, beginning of the 90s, and kind of had its heart really in traditional product design. So for the first 10 years of its life, kind of worked uh quite firmly in consumer product. So everything from white goods to toys to pens, um kind of a wide array of um of product. But then uh at the end of the 90s, uh Priestman Good uh worked with Virgin Atlantic on the design of their lifelap bed for the upper class seat, and that really kind of um transported, um kind of um acted it acted as a um springboard into transport. We went on to design for virgin trains at that time, and then really the the transport work and our expertise and passenger experience really um really grew from that time.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Amazing. Looking back to 2016, which is when you then became employee owned. I guess prior to that you are there's the leadership, the owners of the business were starting to think changes in the air here's an opportunity to do something different. What what led what was it, the retirement of the original founders, or what led down the track of um employee ownership and was fascinated to know what sort of got you to the point of thinking that was the route, and what were the other options that you were either involved with or your uh the founders of the business looked at before they made that decision to go down the route of employee ownership?

SPEAKER_05 9:18

So at the time there were three um directors in the company, two uh founders kind of who'd been there from really the outset, and then a third found a third director who joined um who became director kind of 10 years into the company's history. And they, I think, in many ways, were um really on the front foot in terms of planning next steps for the business. So at that time they were probably in their 50s, and although they weren't, I would emphasize this actually, I don't think it was about retirement planning, but it was thinking, I think the the important focus was on the uh continuation of the business. So rather than necessarily about exit, it was more about creating a kind of sustainable future for the business. Because I think they recognized that they had, you know, we we do have a really kind of strong and healthy business and position in the market, and it was about yeah, taking a long-term view to guarantee that that will continue. Um at the time, there were kind of a number of, let's call them kind of peer um companies in the same space that we're in who had gone down the road of selling to you know a larger company. And um, that had not necessarily gone brilliantly well for them. So there were a couple of, you know, they there were experiences kind of out there which hadn't been so positive. And so, and this was particularly driven by Paul Priestman, um, who I think you know generally is quite a progressive thinker. And he heard about employee ownership and he uh kind of in a design away, he did his research and he found the kind of the key expert who knew all about it to um to talk to. And that person was Graham Nuttall, who wrote the Nuttall report for um the coalition government, and who was instrumental in putting um that legislation in place around 2014, I think. And um, Graham is in fact the chair of our trustee board. Um and the company had kind of the right ingredients in place, I think, in that there were kind of quite a few employees, although we were smaller than we are now, but there were, I don't know, probably half of the team at the time had been with the company for quite a long time.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

So, how many people would that be, Kirsty, at that point?

SPEAKER_05 12:12

So I think at that point, I might be this might be my memory serving me wrong, but I think at that point we were around 40, 50 people. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:26

And we are now a hundred.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

So we've really so we've really grown.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

You remind me in terms of your particular role at that point, were you involved with this sort of that discussion and decision? Because were you an associate? No. So okay, so that was you were sort of on the receiving end of we've got some great news, we're gonna go at you. So how did that um interested to just dig into that a little bit? How did that come across for you initially when you heard about it? Did you think, oh, amazing? Um, exactly the sort of transition we thought in this amazing business, or what were there was there skepticism in the business? What was your I know it's going back a decade now, but what was your sort of reflections at that time?

SPEAKER_05 13:08

You know, again, kind of part of the forward planning. And and and why I talk about you know the the forward planning and looking at the future is I think that is a key part of what you know I I also should be doing now or am doing now is looking to the future, like who's gonna be who's gonna be here in 10 years' time, who's gonna be running this. So in 2012, so four years before we became an EOT, um three of the employees, including myself, were made associate directors. And so the three founders had begun to kind of expand um the number of people who were managing the company. And it went from being quite a small like a small business which was managed uh you know just by a small handful of people were involved in the conversations about the running of the business, um to essentially between, particularly between kind of yeah, around 2016 onwards, we came, we have become a much more um, I mean, corporate is the wrong word, but we've be we've professionalized the way in which we operate. And that's what we've kind of brought to the business, and that has also allowed us to grow. Whereas previously it was much more kind of stripped back, it was very much around um yeah, doing the kind of doing the design work, which is a lot of it, um, and is still like the the most you know, the hugest part of what we do. But as we've grown, we are actually working on much more kind of complex projects, much bigger projects, which require a um, you know, that it requires more project management, it requires a kind of multidisciplinary approach, um, which we've totally adapted to to facilitate that growth. Um, so yeah, so in 2016, when the decision or was made by the board of three of the three founders to um become employee-owned, we the three associates were um invited to become directors. And that invitation was part of we are going to become employee-owned, we want the board to be more representative, we want to share the running of the business um with more people. Um it's obviously, you know, I guess part of the sell was this is about profit for everybody, it's about sharing, it's about securing the future of the business. But we um obviously knew it was so myself and um at the time a uh one of our associates um became trustee directors.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

And we were, I guess, essentially given the responsibility of um of leading the start of the team engagement, the employee ownership engagement. And we um I mean we learned quite a lot from Graham. So Graham obviously kind of shared examples of what he thought, you know, other companies were doing or what was best practice. Um and I think it was so important for us that we had his uh guidance and his steer to say this is the expectation of what you will um as an employee-owned business, you should be doing or you should be giving back to the employees. Because I think shifting the mindset between being founder-run and employee-owned is is quite a big one.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:20

Um and so, yeah, I think maybe actually the word is having his authority to say this is what the expectation with is, yeah, was really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

And how did that land with the team?

SPEAKER_05 17:36

With the um founding directors, with the wine wider team.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Yeah, in terms of the expectation.

SPEAKER_05 17:43

I mean, everybody was yeah, like every previously we hadn't had, I mean, we had didn't do have bonuses previously. Right, okay. Um like there might have been an extra bit of cash at Christmas, yeah, but it there was there wasn't any sense of kind of formal bonus. Right. Um, so that was really appreciated. Um, and we were able to like so initiatives which perhaps might have been um desirable, I think, as a creative company, um like uh time to go and see exhibitions or time to do kind of research into what was happening, kind of trends, or those kinds of things, which kind of might have been a nice to have previously. We were able to say everybody gets half a day every other month to essentially feed their creative spirit, and that will be supported as a business. Uh, so things like that, which have been, you know, everybody used to ask for before we became employee-owned, we were able to kind of bed down. We were a business that was uh very keen on being present at all times. And employee ownership allowed us to introduce more flexibility into that. So, yeah, without question, kind of the beginnings of our flexible working policy began at that time. Um and reward for long service. I think one of one of the early benefits we introduced was kind of additional days for long service, obviously recognising that our team are quite long, long stayers. Um, yeah, so they were the kinds of benefits we started with, but we kind of started with a handful, but we now have like a plethora.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Right. Okay. And it's interesting you put that down to being employee-owned. What is that the permissioning you get by being an employee-owned business? Or or was it you also think new people coming in with new ideas, a different style of leadership, perhaps, moving from what might have been a more founder-led business to, as you you said, professionalized business. Just interested in because I guess some of the things you've just articulated, you could have any business could have done it. It doesn't necess it would necessarily have to be an employee owned business.

SPEAKER_05 20:15

That is true, but we were given the voice and the agency to do it. Which which hadn't which hadn't been present before the past.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Yeah. Okay. Fine.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

So that's because it was pre previously it was more like you know, led from these three people. So they it was more top-down basically.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:39

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Okay. And so just thinking about the the journey you've been on, um I'm always interested in the whole communication piece for those listening to the podcast around what's what does good look like and what doesn't, around when should you first tell the team. It feels like um perhaps it was it it took a while for that sort of filter through. And the communication, if would it be true to say the communication around the time of why you went employee-owned and what that meant for you as the next generation of leaders in the business probably could have been a bit better? Would it be true to say?

SPEAKER_05 21:18

I think probably we could have been I think it's also worth saying we became employee-owned in 2016, and I don't have the stats, but there weren't that many employee-owned businesses at that time. Sure. So we were we were we were one of the first, you know, we were one of the first um businesses to yeah, to become employee-owned under that kind of new legislation.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

Um, I think there were two. So partly it was about what access was to information for us to become educated because perhaps, yeah, we could have been better prepared, maybe as incoming directors. Because we didn't know a great deal about how to, like at the beginning, um how to run an employee in business or what that what that meant in practice. But we had two good sorts, I mean, A, we had Graham, so we had a good guide, and then we had um quite early on, we did two uh, yeah, we did two two things, I think, in around our first year. One was uh uh Field Fisher hosted a kind of day's seminar about a report they'd done, a research um paper they'd done about what employee ownership meant to millennials.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

And that was so that was a like a published piece of academic research, which um uh they shared kind of at this this day's event. And we met, and that was for Dan and I, the other trustee director and I, who were the employee reps, went to that. And um we learnt masses of that event because we learnt other examples of good practice, we met other employee-owned businesses. Um we learnt, you know, much more about um how it related, I think, to culture as much as as much as benefits. Um, and I think we probably we had, I mean, we had a good culture anyway, but we um I think at the beginning, employee ownership was sold on, oh, there's a bonus. Right, okay. And you know, and some other benefits, but yeah, that that was kind of the big thing. And and then we went to the EOA conference, and suddenly we were surrounded by by people or companies that might not even have enough cash to give bonuses. And so that again was kind of the next step on thinking about what did that mean to us as a culture, who we who we are, what we're doing, um, yeah, and what we and what we want to do. And so along the way, we were having kind of uh intermittent meetings with the kind of wider team. And um we did we kind of you know did a couple of bigger events um to kind of celebrate uh employee ownership. Um it seems like a long time ago now. Um and uh but the communication wasn't constant. Yeah, I think it really picked up meaning during COVID because during COVID, suddenly we had to work a lot harder. Yeah, at meeting like we were meeting virtually, obvious, obviously. We were talking in very serious terms about what lockdown meant for us as a business, about how we continued to function as a business, um, you know, kind of setting up all those processes, protocols to translate to remote working, which we'd never done before. Um, and we had to communicate a lot harder. I mean, we were actually very fortunate during COVID. We didn't follow anyone. Our work, I mean, obviously, aviation was not great during COVID, but actually, kind of work from our other sectors kind of sustained us and kept going. We were working on quite a lot of big projects, long-term projects, which carried us through. So we kind of survived COVID. And if you look at kind of the return, because obviously we were also paying back the founders during that time, uh, because we actually completed our um, we did our kind of final payout in 2024. Um, so it took us in the end kind of eight years, um as opposed to seven, which was the original plan. We only actually missed one payment during um 2020.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Okay. The height of COVID period.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

The height of COVID, where we said to the the founders, yeah, we can't pay you right now. But in fact, what we did do in 21-22, we made two payments.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 26:42

So we actually caught up with with them.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

And I feel like there was much more, whereas the communication perhaps before COVID had been a bit more kind of one-sided. Because I think in some ways, with early employee ownership, the employees don't know what they can ask for, what's expected of them in terms of their engagement, what what does it mean to be employee-owned? Um, but then during COVID, the conversations around just generally kind of working as a team, how do we do this? What does this, you know, what does it mean? Um became, I guess, a bit more solid and real. And it was maybe more of an exchange, more of an equal exchange of ideas and expertise, because we were kind of having to tackle a situation that nobody had had encountered before. Um, and there were some uh yeah, I guess difficult conversations, a little bit, um, in that there was more kind of maybe challenge or pushback, but that was actually really good for us. And what it really reminded, I think the the reminder, actually, which is a kind of constant reminder, is that when you as kind of leaders are in the position of um running an employee employee-owned business, you know, by this point we've been in it for whatever, three years, like four years, like that's part of your everyday of what it means to you. Because you're you've been there for the whole history of it. But when you have new people joining, people leaving, actually, they don't know. So you have to constantly remind people this is what it is, this is what it means. Um, this is what we're looking for in terms of your engagement.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

And just just jumping in quickly on that, I mean, that's absolutely fascinating, and I think that's that's right. And I I can see that in our business. You know, we became employee and in 2019, and we've had people, new joiners, in the last 24 months, and it's like, what is this CEO thing? What does it all mean? How how do you do that communication? Uh, what's the mechanism um starting from a new joiner? Does it start literally through an induction program? Do you do town ball meetings? What's the way that you get people? You know, that whole thing about owner mindset and getting people to think like an owner. I'm just fascinated by what are the what are the mechanics, what what are the processes that you have to go through, or what's the what does good communication look like to enable people to get to that point? Just interested in how you do that.

SPEAKER_05 29:39

I was just gonna add actually to kind of as as we were on our journey, we so around that time we've got our another employee rep to the board.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Um that was that was pivotal in kind of sharing the conversation a bit wider. But then in two years ago, two or three years ago, we got another two employee reps on the board. And what that has triggered is an a solid committed program of employee engagement. And I think we were shy of that at the beginning. Okay, and I think in 2016 we went into it in the mindset of um it's a bonus and some extra things, it's it's not that, it's actually about commit like committing yourself as a business to communication between all between all of you, and it's not just a twice-a year report, it's about a kind of ongoing dialogue, and I think we didn't understand that at the beginning, right? But that is how to do it successfully, yeah. And um, yeah, obviously we know so much more than we did then, um, but the increase like having um you know these two new employee uh trustee directors has meant that we um have monthly meetings. Um we have another set of employee reps. We do have formal, we've now actually introduced a kind of second meeting in the year, but we have kind of two formal meetings a year with everyone where we're reporting back on results. So more like we would report back to shareholders. Um and so we've kind of increased uh increased communication and I guess transparency around how we operate.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Right across the business is that to every every team member gets sight of sort of how the business is performing and how they can influence that.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

We do a kind of a report, uh yeah, an edited report of results.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah. Yeah. How how frequently do you do that and what sort of response do you get when you do present that information? Twice a year, is that twice a year, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

So just just quickly the governance, um which again I think folk are always interested in. You've moved the business feels like it's moved from founder-led where it was primarily three, to now. Just what's the structure at the moment? You have a a main board, uh, main leadership team, trust board, and then is there a separate sort of partner council, partner voice group?

SPEAKER_05 32:39

So we have um a board of Priestman Good Limited, which has um seven directors on it. Then we have a trustee board of seven, I think.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Okay. And you you sit on both, chair one, and sit on the other.

SPEAKER_05 32:57

So I sit on both.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah. Yeah. And is it the trust board's responsibility to essentially get? I mean, you've talked about dynamic uh communication, which I think is really important. It isn't just getting the team together twice a year and either telling them something or informing them about something. I like that whole way that you've talked about the change of communication. But in terms of getting information out to the team and the relationship between the trust board and the main board, how how does that dynamic work?

SPEAKER_05 33:26

So that's something actually we've worked on quite hard in the last kind of 18 months to formalise and to you asked me actually how how do we introduce employee ownership. So I'll come, I'll come back to that. But we've um formalized uh how we communicate and how the uh trustee board feeds into the board meeting and the the cycle of board meetings so that there is a loop and a report out, so there's kind of constant communication between the two bodies.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

And is a sort of cadence of meetings, sort of main board and then trust board comes later. How have you structured that?

SPEAKER_05 34:05

So we just have two trustee board meetings a year.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Right, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

Um but the trustee directors hold an employee ownership employee owners meeting once a month.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Right.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

And there'll be a specific topic that they talk about each month. Um and um yeah, and then that's all reported back into the cycle. Right. And we're and we're also kind of through that, we have started to do um twice-yearly uh surveys around employee satisfaction.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:44

And so the results of the surveys drive um drive basically the agenda for uh the employee ownership activity.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Right, okay, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 34:57

Because it'll identify um areas that we need to improve in. And I I was gonna say actually, what is interesting about kind of the flow of um information or of areas that are impacted by employee ownership, there is there is much which is actually about the business. So it, you know, a lot of conversations or a lot of uh areas of interest for employee owners are actually quite operational. They are about the job, as opposed to necessarily the kind of the wider culture or just thinking about the wider culture. Um, so we do kind of talk around those things, but we're clear. So this is from the outset. I mean, A, employee ownership is obviously talked about in terms of recruitment and interview process. Then when uh you're appointed and you're onboarded, I the new person has a session on boarding session, which is specifically about the company, but which incorporates employee ownership, where we explain both the history, but we also explain this is PG Limited board, these are the directors, these are the trustee directors, this is what PG Limited is responsible for, this is what the trustee directors are responsible for, so that people are clear about um I guess what they can influence, but also if they have an idea and a plan, how they execute a plan. So we explain all of that in an induction around employee ownership.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yeah, amazing. And and when when people are applying to the firm, uh is the fact that you're employee-owned often seen as a I really want to work for an employee-owned firm? Do you find that? I mean, we we certainly have with B Corp as well, and that certainly comes through at interview initial interviews. I mean, I guess they're talking about the culture, but the fact that they that we are employee owned and they know if they join us, I'm not gonna be standing up or Philippa in as she's taken over from now and say, Oh, by the way, we've got some news for you. Here's our new company we've just sold to. Do you do you find that's a a sort of a point that people pick up when they join the company and a sort of selling point for your for your studio?

SPEAKER_05 37:19

I think our culture and so therefore employee ownership is uh is a is a huge reason that people want to work for us. Yeah. Because we uh you know it's we work in a relatively small industry. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

Um and uh yeah, I think people come to us part or want to work for us partly because um they think it's gonna be a nice place to work.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Yeah. So you you mentioned a moment ago you're post what's called, I'm not sure I'm a great fan of the idea of Financial Freedom Day, but you are post paying off your deferred consideration. Um which often is a bit of a shackle for a business in terms of trying to grow the business at the same time, pay out the the previous founders. But you it feels like you've got to a uh a good place now, paid off slightly later, but as we found going through COVID, it was as it was difficult to maintain uh deferred consideration, perhaps as was planned. But as you now look to the future, um what what changes might you see that you're able to bring in now you haven't got that uh outflow of capital to the former owners? Is that going to sort of change decision making or the way that you'll look to invest and grow the business now? Perhaps cash is more readily available?

SPEAKER_05 38:42

I mean, we we kind of have three pillars of um retain a kind of as a guide that we share with the team, which we kind of shared maybe two or three years ago, but around retain, reward, and invest. So where we communicate kind of the need to you know have some cash reserves in order to manage the business sensibly and cautiously, um, to um you know be able to continue to uh you know retain people by paying appropriate wages, obviously rewarding through bonus, and then investment falls or covers rather, um, things like training, for example. So everybody gets dedicated training budget now. Um, but invest might also, if it were to come up, or if we were to build up our cash reserves to a degree where we could look at if it was appropriate, investing in something, another, you know, it might be, I don't know, a building, software, a new advance, a new, you know, uh acquisition of another company, if that were ever in, you know, in our plans, not that it is, but you know, those those things allows us to have those conversations because we've communicated that you know that is our yeah, that they are our three pillars that are kind of our guides to how we might uh use our profit.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah, because there's there's not all that many VO businesses as we've talked about. It's still, albeit 2014, it's still relatively infancy. And certainly the businesses that I I was at an event the other day, and I would say 90% are still in that period of having to pay out the DC. So you're you're the other side of that. But I really like the way that you've caught that in in your three pillars. That's really helpful. Uh in terms of uh often deferred consideration is considered a bit of a you know, I think often employee ownership, people think um retain of uh the team, legacy, culture, uh tax-free status, etc. is sort of hailed as um the sort of perfect solution. And I think it doesn't take long before you dig behind the scenes or you experience employee ownership to know that there are some challenges within it. And I think I think you know, in most businesses, I think paying off the founders is is definitely one of them. Another one that often comes up is um incentivising key people. So how do you, if you've got a relatively sort of flat structure, yes, you've got the bonus scheme, but you haven't got the opportunity for someone to have big equity opportunities. Do you think that's either personalise that in your own business? Does that create a challenge, or do you think more widely with employee owned businesses that is a a problem? And if it is, how might we overcome it?

SPEAKER_05 41:45

I mean, we haven't interestingly, like we haven't faced that. And I think we are clear about yeah, I think we're clear about who like who we are as a business, and and that is about like sharing the rewards. Um uh but I think one of the challenges is around kind of retention, that people stay for a long time, like they stay for a long time because they really like it, and that's dependent really on growth. So you need to grow to allow them the opportunities to professionally grow. Um, and you know, that has happened, and I think the statistics show, don't they, that employee-owned businesses perform in that way. They often do grow faster than other companies um or other structures. And you know, we've seen that we are growing, we've gone from, you know, kind of that 50 to a 100 that we are now, and I guess, yeah, the challenges are ensuring that you can allow the continued professional development for the people that have been with you for a long time and don't have the answer to that. Um, and also um, yeah, that you need to how do you maintain uh the culture in a much bigger much bigger scale? Sure. Now I think we are do we we we're still doing that. Right. Um, but I think that becomes more challenging when you're, you know, 100 plus.

unknown 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:32

Because you're kind of moving into a different scale of business. So I would say that's something that we are yeah, grappling with now. Sure. Thinking about kind of next steps.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah. Any other um particular challenges you see in an employee and business? Do you do you feel you have to lead it as the MD in a different way? Do you think being a being a MD of an EO business is quite a different skill set or task than it might be if you were in a non EO business?

SPEAKER_05 44:01

I don't know because I've only been the I've only been an MD of an EO business, yeah. And I think it like it's very is a it suits me because that's the way I like cult cult it's a good culture fit for me. So it yeah, it plays well for me. So um so I can't really answer that question because I'm not sure why I would be in another environment.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Let me just slightly reframe that then in in terms of um of anyone that might be listening to the podcast at the start of thinking, this is how my business is led. Um we're thinking of becoming employee-owned. How's that going to change? What would you say are the sort of attributes of a of an MD or a CEO leading a EO business? What what what what you said it suits you? Why does it suit you? What are the particular styles of leadership that you have you don't think would be suitable to a non-EO business?

SPEAKER_05 44:57

Well, I think it is quite open and not that hierarchical. So and you know that it's it's not just me, it's like you know, the rest of the board are similarly like the particularly the new directors are um yeah, are quite open and work in a collaborative way.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 45:23

And I think that is partly about design, yeah. Uh because you work as a team. So I think you know, employee ownership suits us as a as a design consultancy because it is collaborative. And you know, if an idea like the good idea comes from someone who's a junior and it's still a good idea, then that person will have you know the agency to run with that idea. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:51

Um and so I think, yeah, maybe it's partly about the discipline and yeah, also about the way we I think the way we yeah, operate now. And we're very keen to emphasize team as opposed to individuals, and I think that's a really important part of our culture of EO culture. This kind of work we do is never about one person, and unfortunately, design tends to focus around, you know, a a figurehead who, you know, the genius who came up with the idea. The kind the the the designs that we do, the work that we don't do, which is kind of big, complex um projects, it's not about one person. It's about it's about team and it's about expertise, it's about working with our clients. And we we have five values. Collaboration is one of those values. And that's um, you know, they're key to to how we how we work. So our five values are inclusive, um, sustainable, pragmatic, visionary, and collaborative. And we had buy-in from um, so our values here existed for some time, kind of articulated, but we a couple of years ago we ensured that um we kind of re-engage the team, like from an employee ownership uh perspective, to say, are these still relevant to us? Do they still say what we all collectively believe? And what's really interesting is how embedded that um language is when the team talk about what we do.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:50

So I think they are really reflective and meaningful of the way we approach our work.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Amazing. I think we might have had a little companion joining our podcast.

SPEAKER_05 48:00

No, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

You need to attend to him is he all right. Just one final question, and then I've got a few just of rapid five questions. It's been such a fascinating and amazing conversation, really helpful. One one thing we haven't talked about is clients, and I know, well, we have a little bit just then, but I know for us the fact that we're employee-owned and therefore are going to be around for the future is you know, we're a financial planning business, we take someone on at 30 and they want to be around for the future. I can only imagine in your firm that must be a big plus for you as a EO business, is it not? Because the nature of your contracts, presumably, if you're working with the likes of Version and things, uh multi-year contracts, is that is that another big plus of being employee-owned for you?

SPEAKER_05 48:43

Yeah, I mean, I think it shows, you know, we're we've got longevity, we're going to be there for uh the long haul, but also many of our clients, this kind of also kind of is a parallel with um long-standing members of our team. They're also long-standing clients. So we have people, companies that we've worked with for kind of 20 years plus. Um, and that's showing you know our commitment to yeah, continuing our work with them.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Yeah, yeah, I I imagined it could only be a big plus for you. Brilliant. Anything, Kirsty, that you think we should have covered about the business or being employee and that we haven't covered? Any area that you think, oh, why didn't you cover that that might be helpful?

SPEAKER_05 49:27

Um, I was, I mean, I'm not sure. This came into my mind earlier when we were talking about kind of the the blur between um operational kind of motivations as opposed to kind of just like culture, cultural um engagement. But we have had, you know, I think when you widen the conversation um to include more people, um you do you kind of widen the pool of people who are enthusiastic to um, I don't know, improve profitability, for example. I mean, we've got two really good example examples of we tried to a couple of years ago, we kind of set out a challenge to reduce the amount of data storage we had. Right. So thinking both from a profitability perspective, how much we were paying for storage, but also from a sustainable uh perspective, how much energy we're you know can consuming in that regard. And that was like taken by the team and all like self, um, you know, there were a number of people who took it upon themselves to like really motivate action around that. So that was a really good because that you know that's showing collaborative um impact or on on the for the whole team, and then we've also had um similarly kind of self-motivated um action around kind of creative education, so how much we engage with you know schools, universities, and our kind of pipeline for future um employees and graduates, right? And that also creates in itself a really great culture for our, you know, we've had we have um people who spend their year in industry with us and then they come back to us when they graduate. Right. And so that's kind of self-perpetuing, perpetuating because they are equally invested in the next people who are coming. And um, that is really, really important part of our culture because we feel like those people are you know come to us and they stay with us. Sure. And they start their professional career with us, and that's um that's that's really super valuable.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:56

And they that makes, I mean, people also come back to us a lot. So they might leave for a bit for whatever reasons, but they often come back to us. And I think that is a lot about the culture.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Yeah, amazing. So just we've just got a few rapid fire questions towards the end of the podcast. Yeah. The first one is um, finish the sentence.

SPEAKER_05 52:16

Employee ownership is working collaboratively for the best shared outcome.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

My biggest EO surprise was actually I should have talked about this.

SPEAKER_05 52:28

I don't know if it's a surprise, but to any uh EO business or anyone coming into the EO business space, you need to dedicate time to it. It's not a it's not something that you can do, but like the the culture stuff, the engagement, don't think it will take no time. Because I think um, I'm not sure that sounds very good, but but that's so important.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

I agree with you completely.

SPEAKER_05 52:58

Because at the beginning, I feel like the founders probably thought it would it requires very little um yeah, time and effort, and it really, really requires a lot of dedicated time and effort. And being able to, so for example, for our trustee directors, being able to say X percentage of your time is dedicated to this work is so important and that it is seen by others as being important work. Can't do it, you can't do it as a side hustle. I don't think you can do it, but I don't think it will be consistent, and I think consistency is also super, super important, as well as understanding that you are evolving and learning all the time and you're not going to get it right. And as other people come into it and start to participate, like you know, you have employee owners who might be very light touch, you've got others who are super interested, some who might have very specific interest, but that makes the conversation rich and interesting because you're rolling and making that that is becoming different. It's not the same, you're not delivering the same all the time. So you might want, you know, foundational pillars, whatever, of what you do, but actually it needs to flex and change.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Really well made point, and I completely agree. I I think it's you know, people sometimes look at the same with B Corp as if it's some sort of tick in the box, and when you've done it, you've done it, and you realize it's something you need to do every day, every week. And I think EO is exactly the same. I did a uh I do a series of um blogs on our website, EO Know how, and I was I did one recently on transaction, transition and transformation. If you know the the the transaction is the easy bit, then you move into transition, but actually it's transformation that you're looking at, and it needs it that comes over a period of time, so that's really helpful. Uh I'm a I'm an avid reader, I've read quite a few books on um employee ownership, but one one book, a sort of business-y type book. I don't know if you if you're a book reader, Kirsty, but if you have, are there any um any books you particularly recommend that you've read over the last couple of years that have sort of inspired you around leadership or running a business or anything too?

SPEAKER_05 55:26

I am a very big reader, but not particularly around business books. However, I um did just read a book which was um it's basically the sustainable uh design journey of a consultancy called called Morama, um by a woman called Jo Barnard. And it's a very good and quick read, but it does it, yeah, it demonstrates that we're learning all the time. And and that and that perfect doesn't exist, I think. That's another important part of the conversation I think you have with that one has with one's employee owners, that you are learning together, and you don't necessarily have all the answers, but you are, you know, you're all kind of yeah, trying trying your best to deliver the best.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

Finally, CEO confessional. Okay. You have a choice, you have a choice here of three. So the first one's a moment of honesty, a time when you made a significant mistake, a decision you regret, or a moment of self-doubt. That's number one. Number two is an unfiltered story. You could tell a story about difficult setback in your company, a time you had to fire someone you liked, or the third one a secret struggle, an opportunity to share a specific or uh often unspoken challenge that you faced, and that would be um imposter syndrome or something like that.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

So any any of those three um I don't know which it is. I can give you an I can give you an answer. Um I I think and I'm not sure this is very EO specific necessarily. Yes, but I do think sometimes um well, I suppose one thing I've learned is that you imagine that huge changes, like a significant person leaving, for example, and that and this is relevant to employee ownership w when founders leave, because one of our founders um left the business to go and do to do his, you know, move on and do his own business, his own next business.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:43

Um that you think it will be ground shaking. And and what I've learned is actually it's different, it becomes something different, but different doesn't necessarily need to be bad. And and I think I feel like when significant people have left, I think you feel loss of that per like loss of that person, because everyone is individual. Um but you know, again, the next person who comes into that role brings something different to it, brings a different experience and the role, or they help you go on an you know, on a different step on your journey, and you kind of go with the flow of that, or them it doesn't need to be the end. Sure, I think. Yeah, and I have, yeah, that's something that I have, you know, really learnt, you know, through a number of different experiences, um, and recognizing that you can be sad at the loss of that individual from your daily life, but it was really good. Like what, you know, what you did and what you built was great. And then the next person will bring something different, and it it could be, you know, equally great, um, but it will be different.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I I completely echo that. I mean, you you you joined your company in 2001. I set up Paradigm Norm in 2001. So we've they've been on a sort of similar, similar journey. Um twins. Yeah, and I and I will completely echo that. You know, we've we've we've had some amazing people come through the business equally for a variety of reasons. We've we've lost some really good people, but you know, you you you wish they hadn't gone, but life goes on and and and the business sort of morphs and shapes as a result of um losing people, and it equally allows other people to absolutely flourish. And I've I've seen certainly in our business, people go from not really involved in clients to one of the team members here now leads a significant part of the business, and it's just been amazing to see as people have come and gone, um, some people just really flourish in an amazing way.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:05

So I think if there is one legacy of employee ownership and of good culture, is that when people leave, they take that with them and they go and they do that somewhere else, and that is success. That for me is like have good culture so you can show good practice and people will think of you always like that was a great experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:28

I I want to, you know, I want to replicate that or I want to take whatever I thought was good about that and do it in my own way, but that you are sowing seeds. So when you know, when people go on, essentially, I've always been a great believer in success, breed success, that they go on, but really feel part of like an extension of that practice or culture.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so true. Yeah, we we've had a uh I mean, thankfully we don't lose lots of people, but sometimes people just think, actually, I'm just gonna go and have a go at doing it myself. And there's a few people that have done that, and I look at what they're doing, and I'm I can see a little bit of Aradam Norton in what they're doing in terms of the culture. But amazing. They're doing different things, it's not what we're doing, they're serving a different client population, but hey, you know, they're doing a great job, and that's brilliant. So wonderful. Really appreciate your time. There's some real gems in there. Thank you for your honesty and sharing your sort of candid stories. I love the idea of PO just being a gr a process and and and actually it isn't that you you're not doing box ticking, it's something that just evolves and and flourishes, but you need to sort of give it time and things change. But it is that continuous journey. I think that's that's so important. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

I'll leave you to your dog for the rest of the day. This podcast is intended to be of a general nature, will not be suitable for everyone, and should not be treated as a specific recommendation. We recommend taking professional advice before entering into any obligation or transaction. Paradigm Norton Financial Planning Limited is authorized and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority.